Yes, my parents replaced every window in their house (40 windows or so) with Lincoln replacement windows 4 or 5 years ago. They have been very pleased and have not had one problem. The folks at their local lumberyard (Randall Brothers in Atlanta) highly recommended them as well. About 7 years ago they remodeled and expanded their master bathroom, adding a seperate tub and shower. The window over the tub is Marvin, as well as the secondary windows on either side. I think it was in the 4500 range for all three windows and has performed no better than the Lincoln.

They also have used Anderson windows in the last year as they remodeled their beach place. It is ocean front and they have had problems in the past with water in their condo so Anderson was recommended to them for this sort of ocean front usage. Their prior windows were Peachtree Windows (which they installed 15 years ago in the condo during another renovation) and they were terrible. Some of that was due to installation but they weren't satisfactory on any level. They now have Anderson windows, french doors and sliders and they work great.

We aren't at the stage where we are specifying windows but Lincoln is certainly on my short list as my parents have had such a good experience with them and they are an attractive price.

Just talked to my mom and she also said that her electric bill went down 20.00 a month after they were installed. Of course they were replacing older (probably 25 year old) double hung, dual pane wood windows, but even those windows had been kept in excellent repair (just had the snap in mullions instead of the SDL), and weren't obviously leaking, etc.

That is interesting. . . not sure what my parents have but they have a very traditional cape cod with a high level of interior and exterior detail and these windows look great. They were replacement windows. My mom was not sure but they did do all wood interior and exterior with (she thought) a PVC sill.

Unfortunately I don't have any window specific pictures but here is their bedroom bay window with side double hungs and their library window (with my dad working - sorry dad!). My parents (particularly my dad) is a stickler for quality trim - it is his big thing - so although I haven't looked at the windows super closely I can't imagine they have the issues pointed out by macv.

I appreciate the info macv but I wouldn't rule out Lincoln based on their website. Whatever combination my parents have looks great.
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As far as the difference in sash widths, I can't tell from these pictures if they have that or not as the double hungs are taken at an angle. I will say that I have never, ever noticed it so if there is a difference, it is very slight.

Something to think about though!

athensmomof3, the windows appear to PVC compression jambs installed in existing window frames. The exterior of the sash could be painted wood, aluminum cladding, vinyl cladding, or a hybrid. The jambs could be standard (narrower upper sash) or "concealed jamb" (same sash width). All we really know about the windows is that they are the replacement type made by Lincoln and the owners like them.

polkadots, you need to clarify the design requirements and desired features/styles so people can give you specific advice rather than general advice about manufacturers. Most companies make at least one window model that is acceptable but most make at least one unacceptable model and many don't offer the most popular features. Others have such poor sill profiles that a sub-sill is necessary (not a bad idea for all nail-fin windows for better exterior trim appearance) and the roll-form aluminum quality varies considerably even within a manufacturer's line-up.

Remember that many of these models were originally made by another company and got bought out and added to the current manufacturer's line-up. Jeld-Wen's three wood/clad window models used to be three separate companies not to mention their multiple vinyl and replacement lines.

There's no substitute for your own due diligence unless you hire someone to do it for you.

Athensmom and macv, thank you very much for the information. Athensmom, I appreciate you checking with your mom and posting the pictures - the windows look great!

macv, I couldn't agree more that there is no substitute for my own due diligence! I am pretty much a due diligence freak (ask my builder and designer!), but I have found this windows research to be very difficult. It is tough to find anyone who knows anything and isn't just trying to sell something! Also, so many of the window parts are hidden so it is really difficult to tell much from looking. Soliciting info here has been part of my due diligence because in general people are unbiased and helpful!

The literature for both the Siteline EX and the Lincoln clad windows indicate that they are using an extruded aluminum. You and I had this "conversation" before and you thought that although they are using extruded it is applied in such a way that it is really more like roll-form. This is where I just get stuck and throw up my hands! I can't afford the Marvin Ultimates so I just don't know where to turn...

BTW, I am building a cape cod/tidewater house so am planning on double hungs. I am wanting wood interior and probably a clad exterior, but am open to fiberglass if that is a good option. We live in the midwest so we have the extremes of weather. Basically I just want the best window I can get without breaking the bank!! Don't we all...:)

Thanks for reading and for any help.

The last time I talked to a Jeld-Wen rep I asked him about the aluminum sash cladding and he confirmed that all their window sash have roll-form aluminum cladding. He said the reference to extruded aluminum is only for the frame and sill. I think this is a growing disreputable advertising trend by the lower quality window manufacturers; I've noticed that several companies have started doing it this year.

Don't overlook the Andersen Woodwright. It can be bought cheaply if you go to a professional supplier instead of Home Depot. Be sure not to mention Home Depot when you talk to a professional window dealer; some homeowners use their quote to get Home Depot to lower theirs.

It took me 20 years to feel that I understood enough about windows to pick the right ones for a project and I have to continually talk to the reps to keep up with the changes and new models.

If you have a budget for a typical double-hung window for your house, what is it, what size is the window and what are the features?

Oh, and I am not planning on doing the simulated divided lights...although that looks wonderful, I know myself and I do not want to have to clean each pane of glass. I will probably do the grills, but not sure yet. Wanted to mention that. Would that make you lean toward the Integrity line then? I hear lots of good things about the Integrity line, but I have yet to find anyone who has actually used them around here.

This is all very interesting - and educational. I have no idea how to differentiate one brand from another - just keep hearing Woodwright/Ultimate/Integrity. We have to buy LOTS of windows and 14 sets of french doors, and when you are doing that a few hundred dollars here and there can really add up.

I don't understand the PVC compression jamb thing? Is this for replacement windows? The Lincolns say extruded PVC jamb. How is this different from what is on the Marvin or Anderson, for example?

This is all very confusing! And for us (like most folks I guess) budget is a huge factor in this.

Also, another question about the Woodwright. I don't understand why it is regarded so highly as it appears to be PVC. Are the materials superior, or is it just the detailing that is superior?

Athensmom, is it sooo confusing! Like I mentioned I am ususally able to educate myself well on things, but these windows are a different story! Good luck! The compression jamb is the little track on the inside of the window that the actual window moves up and down within. The PVC compression type that macv refers to is the basic kind, it sticks out from the window. They make some that are concealed and are flush with the window. They definitely look better, but I was told that if I was going with white anyway no one would really notice it...it might not be as durable, but I'm not sure. We don't open our windows that much anyway! :)

macv, I have several windows across the front of the house with rough opening size of 33 7/8" x 73". Features are grill between the glass, white, BetterVue screen, Low-e. One quote I have is $411.45 each. That is for Lincoln, the Integrity is $447.75 (Low-e 366 with Argon and a regular screen). I don't really have a per window budget, just an overall number that I am comfortable with. Either of those would be within my comfort range. Not sure if that information helps or not. Thanks.

I think I need to get a quote on Andersen Woodwright.

Thanks again!

In the 80's most windows had jamb liners that consisted of a white or beige PVC track with soft open-cell foam behind it. When the sash were forced into place the jamb liners compressed to accommodate them and the windows could be tilted for washing by compressing the jamb liners and pulling on the top of the sash. Since that time the higher grade windows developed a different "hidden" track system that uses weather striping and does not expose white or beige PVC at the jambs and the sash can be removed with simple latches. Marvin put that into the Ultimate and Andersen put it into the Woodwright, etc. The PVC compression jamb liners are still commonly used by replacement windows.

That's a bit of an oversimplification since there are so many window jamb systems.

The 300 Woodwright has a PVC clad frame and sill (same as the 300 Tilt-Wash) but the sash is clad with Fibrex (wood fiber and PVC) and the Tile-Wash has a special PPG elastomeric paint that Andersen dares to call a plastic cladding.

Many manufacturers dropped the roll-form aluminum cladding because of problems with rotting when water got behind the cladding. Other manufacturers relied on preservatives to solve this problem and kept the roll-form cladding.

Another good extruded aluminum clad window is Eagle (now owned by Andersen).

macv, I did post some budget numbers up above your last post.

Awhile back I went to a place that sells multiple lines. I was asking about Eagle and they seemed to steer me away and said to look at the Siteline for the money. He noted he didn't like the Anderson 400s because he thought they looked flat?? Not much dimension on the outside. I will have to go back and make sure we are talking about the right Andersens...why did they have 400 in the names of two different products - that's a mistake!!

Hi polkadots,
Just wanted to chime in as we originally considered Lincoln last year. I am pretty sure I ruled them out due to the lack of extruded aluminum. We then looked at Eagles and Kolbe double hungs, both of which were great. We ended up with top top of the line Kolbes, for less than the Eagles- they have concealed jamb liners and extruded aluminum. They are lovely, and very traditional looking.

Polkadots,

I think I have the same windows that Athensmom's parents have. We replaced our windows about 8 years ago. Our Lincoln windows look great, but I hate them. We are big fresh air fans, and I find them incredibly difficult to open and close. In order to make sure they stay closed, you have to lock them. The upper sash tends to slide down. Also, some of them are nearly impossible to mash the jamb in enough to tilt them out for washing. Some of the problems could very well be installation problems, but I am steering clear from anything with a compression jamb for our new house. Never again. I want the little slide out pins to secure the window in the track and release it for tilt out.

I looked at the new Lincolns at Randall Brothers just to be fair, but I thought the hardware was cheap and flimsy looking. That being said, there is a $12 million spec house down the road that has some very handsome push out/European style casement windows by Lincoln.

I hope that helps. Just thought I'd toss another opinion out there.

12 millon dollar spec house??? WOW _ have to find that one on the MLS! I can't even begin to imagine!

Very good points buckhead. I think it all depends too on how you use your windows. My parents, I can safely say, have never opened a window in their life in their house unless it was to air it out from painting, so ease of opening is not an issue. They also have never washed a window in their life (at least not regularly) . . . they have a great fellow who washes their windows twice a year, in and out, so the tilt is not an issue for them.

As far as the tilt goes, I invalidated most of mine in my current house by putting plantation shutters on them . . . and couldn't begin to tell you how to tilt out the rest, so it may not be as useful a function as it sounds.

As far as the compression jamb goes, it sounds like what I have now and I must say it has never bothered me.

What are you using buckhead?

polkadots, the salesperson confused the Andersen 400 Woodwright with the 400 Tilt-Wash or you misunderstood the comment. The Tilt-Wash has a silly looking flat plastic muntin on the exterior and the Woodwright has a deep traditional looking Fibrex one.

The round tubes in the Lincoln jamb detail may be old-style "spring balances" which would explain why they pop open when not locked. That would also explain why they are at the lower range for cost. Usually you can only find out by going to see one in a store and slamming the sash closed to see if it bounces and/or makes a funny sound.

Thanks to everyone for the additional information and comments...looks like I have a little more work to do before I can cross this decision off my list! Thanks.

Another question - how do you know if it is the "good" kind of extruded aluminum or the kind that is more like roll form?

This discussion has taught me that I don't care about the PVC compression jamb now that I know what it is (window trim will be white and it is in the part covered by window treatments generally), and really don't care if the window slides down when I open it once every 3 years.

What I do care about is that I want it to look nice (good detailing) and not rot :). The rest I am willing to trade for a better price.

Any windows that fall into that category :)?

As I said earlier, to understand how a window is made you need to look at the details on the manufacturer's website (unless you have access to cross-section samples).

I posted the detail for the Lincoln window showing the roll-form aluminum sash cladding (the thin aluminum is tight to and wrapped around the wood sash frame).

Here is an extruded aluminum clad window showing a space between the sash frame and the thick cladding.

This is what a Pella roll-form clad sash looks like with a white PVC jamb liner. Extruded aluminum sash cladding would not overlap. Note the wood sub-sill added because the aluminum sill nose is so thin and to provide traditional jamb trim detailing.

This is a Marvin Ultimate Double-Hung with extruded aluminum sash cladding, a hidden jamb liner and a historic PVC sub-sill from Advanced Trimwright.

Very helpful! Obviously number 2 is much more attractive but I must admit I have never seen such a thing as that white object in the Pella picture! U.G.L.Y.

I have never noticed compression jambs (if they are what I think they are) on the outside of a window before and have never seen one that big. I thought they were that little weatherstripping thing on the top sash of a window. I can see why you would want to avoid that Pella example!

Is Marvin the only brand that has the space in between the extruded aluminum and the wood? What is the purpose of the air space?

Macv, which windows would your recommend for our house? We would like to spend less, but there are 28 casements of different sizes (mostly large sizes) and we are going with grey Hardie, some stone, and all white windows with grills. Which line should I look into?

Athensmom,

We are undecided about windows right now. I'm waffling between wood and clad. My builder really likes Pella windows, but I think the comparable Jeld-wen look fine, too. We have a lot of windows, so we need to find the right value and the right look.

Oh, and I'm mistaken about the spec house. The price has dropped to $5.5 million as is. Estimated to take another $2 million to finish it. I think the bank failed and the FDIC called the loan. I'll link it below for your entertainment.

Here is a link that might be useful: ridiculous spec house

Aware of that one on Garreaux - used to cut through there on the way to high school and my mom assures me I wouldn't recognize it now! So, 5.5 for an unfinished house . . . good luck with that in this economy!

I am with you with the right value and right look on the windows - the number of windows we have is downright scary (not to mention the french doors) when you think about having to pay for them.

I like the idea of clad for sure as we have a couple of windows here with rotting sashes. I also like the no maintenance thing but I think a bad clad where the wood rots under the clad could be disastrous!

Talking to a builder next week so I am preparing myself for sticker shock!

We went with Windsor Pinnacle clad. It's supposed to be extruded aluminum. We have casement windows. I will admit the Marvin ultimate and Kolbe were nicer, but we decided the Windsor were good enough. We rarely open windows b/c of allergy issues. There was about a 12K difference in price.

A jamb liner is visible at the top from inside and at the bottom from outside because it runs full height and the upper sash is forward of the lower sash (so they can open). The ones that are white or beige are usually PVC that must be compressed to remove the sash. The ones that are only a narrow slot with a strip of PVC or weatherstripping are called "concealed" or "hidden" jambs and the sash can be more easily removed with finger latches at the top of the loser sash.

After looking at the Lincoln brochure photo of a cut-away window sample I think the cladding is extruded aluminum but it is tight to the wood unlike other manufacturers' details. The reason for an air space is to allow drainage and less opportunity for wood to rot (the window is basically structural aluminum on the outside and structural wood on the inside). Similarly, the Andersen Woodwright is wood on the inside and Fibrex on the outside with a drainage space between them.

If the "concealed jamb liner upgrade" option is selected, the Lincoln might be a good window; it certainly looks good in the photo. I would want to try one to see if it has a spring balance system (omitted in the cut-away sample) and if that worked well.

Here is the Woodwright:

This thread has great information, thank you.

I went to a different Marvin dealer in town yesterday and am awaiting a quote. My current Ultimate quote is around $8,500 higher than the Lincoln's so we'll see. In my current house we are selling I am dealing with repairing wood rot on wood windows (and I have really kept up on these windows!), so those costs do add up over time and I really don't want that in this new house. And with the clad products you really can't fix them, can you?

Macv, thanks for looking more closely at the Lincoln's. I am planning to meet with my Lincoln dealer in the next day or two and will be asking him some of these questions and looking more closely at the windows. I will find out the cost of the concealed jambliner upgrade. Getting that is not just for looks right, it also functions better for opening and tilting, right?

Thanks again and I'll post if I find out any good information.

I looked at the Woodwright replacement window at Home Depot last night. Does this look the same as the one made for new builds? It looked kind of plastic-y to me but I guess nothing clad looks like wood up close, right? The detailing was nice, I agree.

The water under the cladding really concerns me. Like someone said, I might rather have the wood so at least if it rots I can deal with it. It seems that many of the wood windows are some sort of treated wood. Does this really work in retarding rot?

I did notice that the Jeldwen Siteline EX uses treated wood for its wood window and under its cladding as well. If the treated wood is helpful, I would presume it would give you an extra layer of protection from rot, plus the low maintenance benefits of clad. Or is this just marketing?

The way I see it, a full wood sash frame with a thin layer of roll-form aluminum covering it is susceptible to rot so the wood is usually preservative treated. It is not that the treatemnt is helpful, it is essential.

Another way to deal with this problem is to put an extruded aluminum section on the outside of the sash and wood on the inside with a space between them. Unfortunately, the latter approach adds cost to the window so the choice may depend on your budget and/or how long you plan to own the house.

An Andersen 400 Woodwright replacement window is essentially the same as a regular Woodwright except it doesn't have a full frame.

We looked at many of these brands as well. Our price for Pella Architect Series double hung vs. Windsor Pinnacle Clad were virtually identical. Windsor was able to show me their extruded aluminum which looked solid. When I mentioned this difference to the Pella guy, he told me Pella is far superior and that extruded aluminum is really just a fancy marketing phrase used by the competition. However, he couldn't demonstrate the superiority of the product, so in the end we are planning to go with the Windsor. We priced Anderson - it was a bit less than the Windsor / Pella quote. I was not sure about the Anderson product as it doesn't seem to be aluminum at all (but maybe I just misread).

Some things that had a big effect on the price (which I didn't previously think about):
1.) Number of lites --- the more you have, the more expensive the price
2.) Hardware -- ORB can drive up the price a bunch.
3.) Anything tempered costs more, so windows close to doors cost more to pass code.
4.) Colored cladding --- I wanted ivory vs. white white --- this is a 2-3% upcharge for Pella --- standard pricing for Windsor.
5.) Screens --- obviously, if you have them, they cost more

I played with my quote quite a bit, and fine tuned it --- I was able to save a lot of money by taking screens out of places like the garage, or hidden windows. I used ORB hardware everywhere except attic windows and garage -- this saved me some money. I fixed (made non-operable) some of the windows where appropriate and finally, I am using Emtek hardware made for Windsor vs. Windsor hardware (this will be seamless to me as Windsor handles it), but it saves me several thousand dollars. I am sure I have been a pain to the Windsor guy, changing and changing to try to save some money, but the savings have been worth it to me as I am getting lots more included for much less now. He has been very helpful in working with me (in Charlotte).

Anyway, my point is, whichever window line you choose, you can probably find some efficiencies if you spend the time going through the quote.

Thanks for all of the great info above! Rachel

The Pella salesperson's attempt to discredit a superior competing product does not surprise me.

Andersen windows are, in general, PVC clad wood unless you are talking about a different company named Anderson.

Very helpful Rachel! Not familiar with Windsor but will put it on my list. Trying to get some preliminary specs together to give to builders to price out.

It occurred to me that you might be able to mix concealed jamb windows with non concealed jamb. Is this right? The exterior concealed jamb (unless it was like the Pella one shown above!) would not be visible on the outside on the upper level, or dormers, etc. The interior concealed jamb wouldn't concern me in most places as it is likely to be hidden by panels, shutters, or blinds in many places.

Does Pinnacle have the space between the extruded aluminum and the wood like macv described above? I don't know how to read the cross sections :)

Also, after looking at the Windsor website the legend window sounds like it may be a good product (at least their literature makes it sound good). It sounds like it is all PVC like Azek trim? Does it look like wood when painted?

The extruded aluminum sash cladding on the Windsor Pinnacle is very similar to the Lincoln.